284 replies to this topic

[MortarionX]

Obviously im not well versed in Mech Warrior Lore. I discovered Mech Warrior in MW 4 Mercs and I love it. But, looking around the forums I've seen that there seems to be a lot of hate/indefference toward the Clans and Clan tech. Is Clan tech not usually superior? Some explanation would be nice.

[Aethon]

MortarionX, on 24 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Obviously im not well versed in Mech Warrior Lore. I discovered Mech Warrior in MW 4 Mercs and I love it. But, looking around the forums I've seen that there seems to be a lot of hate/indefference toward the Clans and Clan tech. Is Clan tech not usually superior? Some explanation would be nice.

Why hate on the Clans? Because it's what all the cool kids do these days.

[pursang]

Well, for me it's more to do with the lore of the Clans and their (known) history. I mean, how hypocritical can you be to say you're an honorable warrior, when your ancestors up and left their collective posts in the InnerSphere and thus condemned it to hundreds of years of bloodshed. And for what, exactly? One man told them too? It's pathetic if you think about it, and one of the many reasons why I dislike the Clans as a whole.

[Suskis]

I am a Battletech player and I almost never cared for lore. But the reason for I hate clan is that what had been a perfectly balanced game for many many years, then became an imbalanced game after Level 2 rules introduction. Gauss rifles, ER PPCS and AC20/ultra (not to mention RACs).. all this change everything for worse

[Nasty9]

Clan culture is quite anti-human in its structure and its function.

[theginganinja]

There are two main reasons. As in pursang's case, there are those who dislike the Clans for lore reasons. However, the vast majority of Clan-haters are motivated by the sheer imbalance created by Clan tech - particularly before/during the early years of the invasion (set to happen about a year after when the game will be set at launch). The fact is that without a combination of extraordinary luck, good tactics, numerical superiority, AND overall favorable conditions, Clan forces will beat Inner Sphere forces 9 times out of 10. Lots of people don't like that, and while I don't share their dislike for the Clans, I can certainly see their point

[DireWolf307]

The Clans invaded the Inner Sphere out of nowhere, threw the whole of the Inner Sphere in to chaos (not that it was ever not in a period of chaos during the times of the Succession wars, but the early-3040s represented a time of relative peace, with the end of the Fourth Succession War and the formation of FedCom), killed a whole lot of people, practically destroyed one of the nations and otherwise caused a huge nuisance, and you wonder why they are hated?

Yeah, they had a lot of "cool stuff", but they did a lot of terrible things.

Pursang's point is excellent too. At the same time, Aleksandr Kerensky's point was a good one, with the Star League crumbling, the SLDF would have just been used as a tool by the House Lords, something that even ComStar faced.

Edit: As far as gameplay, yes Clan equipment made it unbalanced, but it wasn't long before the Inner Sphere caught up in technology. The only period particularly unbalanced is probably the 3050-3060 era.

Edited by DireWolf307, 24 May 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[Tarellond]

It is easy, clans were portrayed as OP and their tech supperior to IS. From this, one can easily expect players driving clan mechs and equipment to break the game balance. So why not to protest against them?

[Riptor]

Well lets see here....


In terms of game mechanics: They totaly broke the balance of the game when introduced. Their mechs where faster and could carry more weapons. Said weapons where lighter, caused more damage, had far far more range then their IS counterparts, and to top it off caused less heat buildup then the IS weapons.

All in all stat wise the clans where completly OP and broken.

Lore wise? Its their "hollier then thou" attitude that they rub into everyones face. "Oh im an artificial created super soldier and so much better then you who has a real mommy!" Well boohoo.. you still arent able to take Terra.

And if they loose its never their own fault... its because their enemy didnt fight "honorable" enough or didnt follow their silly rules of engagement that they only uphold when it suits them.

And then theres the myth about bidding and zelbriggen. Bidding away forces was the clanners way of getting the right to drop first onto the battlefield, and the mroe they bid away the more they could wave their genitals in the other clans face... this and the reason that the clans had never experienced all out war was the only reason they where beaten by comstar... their own sheer arrogance.

And zelbriggen? Sure its "honorable" going 1 vs 1 when you outclass the enemy in every way possible. Thats as if you send an abrahams tank from the modern day to fight a WW2 Tiger tank. Guess whos going to be the winner?

Even thought they had all the advantages on their side they totaly blew it thanks to how unrealistic their behavior was written in the books. But even after their defeat they act as if they are better then the rest of the IS.


Now that i have stated the reasons why people could "hate" the clans let me tell you that i dont hate clan players... they are just annoying when they try to "RP"

Edited by Riptor, 24 May 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[The Yeti]

It has always been said the Children of Korensky will return when the inner sphere need them the most, upon the return, the houses united to fight a common enemy. I have always had a "soft spot" for the clanners and their society, fighting for the honor of the battle. I know it is unfortunate that they have better tech, but when you spend so much time refining the art of battle and not political bickering there is bound to be an advantage to them. I hope to fight in the name of Korensky to unify the IS, and bring back the SLDF.

[Mercurial]

Like people have said: Early on clantech vs. IS is so ridiculously on the side of Clans it isn't even funny. Clantech weapons have better heat/damage ratios, tend to lack any of the weaknesses of their IS counterparts, and their clan mechs carry a hell of a lot more armor--all while running faster and cooler then their IS counterparts (Double heat sinks for IS used to take 3 crit slots for less weight and double heat sinks--you were trading crits for weight, a clear upside/negative. Clan heatsinks weighed less and took up two criticals--you're only 'payment' was you lost two sinks if you took a crit shot there--Consequently IS had the same problem, only they were even more likely to take the hit (an extra slot, after all)--don't even get me started on some of the truly crazy advantages, like the targeting computer. (Hello Masakari with your best gunner. What's that? Consistent 45 damage per round on any one point? And the player gets to pick? )

It gets worse when you add into the fact that Zelbriggen' is going to be difficult to force on players. The whole honor system was a clunky way of trying to balance things out a bit (Frankly I didn't see many players sticking to it much in the TT) and it's near impossible to force on players practically in an MP sim. Because of this, there will be pretty much no downside to taking a clan mech over an IS, particularly in 3050. It's going to be a problem, I think.

(Also, since I'm ********: Clan Medium Pulse Lasers were so absurdly good damage/heat for their weight cost it wasn't even remotely funny. And that's before you add the frigging +2 to roll for being pulse).

Edited by Mercurial, 24 May 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[pursang]

The Yeti, on 24 May 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

It has always been said the Children of Korensky will return when the inner sphere need them the most, upon the return, the houses united to fight a common enemy. I have always had a "soft spot" for the clanners and their society, fighting for the honor of the battle. I know it is unfortunate that they have better tech, but when you spend so much time refining the art of battle and not political bickering there is bound to be an advantage to them. I hope to fight in the name of Korensky to unify the IS, and bring back the SLDF.

The Clans don't have "political bickering"? LOL!

Edited by pursang, 24 May 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Infine]

1) Clantech.
2) Retarded Nicolas. Seriously, I was rooting for Wolverines. Apart from the nuke part.
3) Balancing mechanics inspired by vast clantech superiority. Namely, Clantech meets Retarded Nicolas. Namely, the slugfest style of combat. You know something is retarded beyond imagination when it has a politically correct term (zellbrigen).
4) Munch kine. Namely Clantech without Retarded Nicolas. You know someting is even more retarded than that which has a politically correct name, when it's made by the motto "two wrongs make a right". Because when you substract one wrong from a right, you are left with the wrong.

[Aethon]

pursang, on 24 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Well, for me it's more to do with the lore of the Clans and their (known) history. I mean, how hypocritical can you be to say you're an honorable warrior, when your ancestors up and left their collective posts in the InnerSphere and thus condemned it to hundreds of years of bloodshed. And for what, exactly? One man told them too? It's pathetic if you think about it, and one of the many reasons why I dislike the Clans as a whole.

Your opinion, of course. There are many things that could have been done, if one were in Kerensky's shoes. A few examples:

1. He could have stayed, and allowed what was left of the SLDF to be ground down into pulp in a war of attrition. Sure, they'd have slaughtered mass quantities of the house militaries, but to what end?

2. He could have steamrolled one house or another. Again, to what end?

3. He could have, as some people say, split the SLDF up between the houses...and gave them even more potent weapons with which to annihilate one another.

4. He could have removed the most potent fighting force in human history from the equation, which is what he did. He could have kept the most brilliant scientists alive, which he did. He could have kept the core values of the Star League alive, which he did (some of his followers' descendants did not necessarily do so, but he cannot be blamed for their actions).

Long story short, I don't think there was a perfect answer to what he should have done. It may have been brave, gallant, 'right', or whatever, to stay and fight for the glory of the Star League, or that in which they believed...but a good general knows when a battle cannot be won, and preserves his troops to fight another day.

If you want to lay the blame at someone's feet for the collapse of the Star League, fine...go ahead and blame Kerensky. But don't forget to include Stefan Amaris, Jennifer Steiner, Minoru Kurita the 1st, Kenyon Marik, John Davion, and Barbara Liao. Stefan Amaris needs no introduction, and the other five were the ones who pulled out of the Star League, massacred civilians, nuked plantes from orbit, destroyed the technology that the Star League fostered, and began braining one another back to the stone age.

[FoxiestFox]

I couldn't care less about the lore behind the Clans, how OP their tech is and all the riff raff. I just love the Clans for what they stand for, honourable combat and such, regardless it it's one sided.

[Ian]

Clans are like the 14yo who buy the latest greatest toy, then run around showing it to everyone say look my toy is so much better than yours. Arrogant obnoxious p@#$ks who believe they are better than you for some reason. It makes me really glad that the balance in this game is going to be some form of BV. That levels the field and makes it a game of skill. But really its that arrogance than makes a good many people hate them so. It seems that if you got started in Battletech before the clans were introduced you have a much much greater chance of disliking them.

I'd really like to point out that that was in referance to Clans in fluff not players who like clans. Some players like the clans because of their ideas of honorable combat. Thats all well and good although I think the Knights of the Inner Sphere have them beat hands down.

Edited by Ian, 24 May 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I personally adore the Clans. I love the lore on them and how they structure their military and belief system. They are not anti-human, they are anti-FREEBORN. Free Births are people like yourself and myself, born by means of actual MMHMM if you follow me on this. They see themselves as superior because their genes were not left to chance, they are the descendents of those the clans think the best of the best. And yes, in general their tech is far superior, BUT that is because it is based off star league technology that THEY didnt lose, unlike the IS managed during the succession wars, so they are not behind the 8 ball on developing weapons and mechs.

[MortarionX]

Wow did not know it was such as sensitive topic. Still quite interesting. So I have read a few MW books and apprently Clanners are genetically engineered. Exactly how did the Clans start and why did the invade the IS?

[Mercurial]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans

Probably better off just reading that.

[FoxiestFox]

MortarionX, on 24 May 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Wow did not know it was such as sensitive topic. Still quite interesting. So I have read a few MW books and apprently Clanners are genetically engineered. Exactly how did the Clans start and why did the invade the IS?

They started from the remnants of the Star League Defense Force. If I'm not mistaken they invaded to show their power and take Terra, hence the Crusader Clans. I'm probably wrong, but it's my inference.